Hogwarts leaves OSGRID

[Uwe Furse]

Männergespräch, Hiro und Uwe auf Lbsa Plaza ... Haha ...

[Bogus Curry]

hast dem kerl mal die Meinung gesagt .. lol

[Raul Gonzales]

Männergespräch, Hiro und Uwe auf Lbsa Plaza ... Haha ...

Was soll uns das jetzt sagen

[Akira]

Mein Heim wird diese Woche noch verlegt, ich hab die Schnauze voll von dem Diskriminierungsscheiss der da abgezogen wird.

Und ich war irgendwie mal ein bissi stolz Teil dieses Grids zu sein. Jetzt schäme ich mich nur noch für das Grid.

Könnte heulen!

Jo, Diskriminierung kann so offen ausgetragen werden oder auch in subtileren Formen. Ich mag keine! Wir sind hier um Spass zu haben. Habe den Punkt noch nicht gefunden wo es Hiro schmerzen wird.

In Anlehnung an: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denkmal_f%C...en_Europas könnt ich beginnen für jeden Avatar der gelöscht wird ein Prim aufzustellen auf osgrid-de.info

"Occupy the Plazas" ist auch ein ding das man durchziehen könnte.

... und und und ... brauche nicht viel Kreativität um weitere Aktionen auszudenken ...

Ja, je länger ich darüber nachdenke je wütender werd ich ... schliesslich war und bin ich vier Jahre in dem Grid und möchte das noch weiterhin bleiben... und nicht jeden Sonntag bei diesen Townhalls mit einer riesigen Wut im Bauch rauszugehen. Klar man kann auch die Augen schliessen und sagen, was die da oben machen geht mich nix an... aber solange der default Aufschlagpunkt bei einer dieser verdammten Plazas ist, und man dort in Gefahr gerät erschossen zu werden, geht mich das sehr wohl was an...

Mal schauen ... mit Wut im Bauch operiert man oft unvernünftig ... aber der Kerl tut's auch... und wenn schon Abflug, dann mit Getöse

[LyAvain]

... und wenn schon Abflug, dann mit Getöse

Das hätte Stil...

[Catie Chiung]

Was mich auch im OSgrid abschreckt ist der Faktor das Hiro ein großer Akteur vom Littlefield Projekt ist, die übrigens auch die Firestorm-Region zur Verfügung stellen. Irgendwie kommt einen das wie eine Festigung der Macht vor, zumal auch Regionen über Littlefield vermietet werden.

[Akira]

Damit's nicht verloren geht ( chatlog aus irc )

20:20 < lkalif> nebadon: http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/about seems non functional
20:21 < lkalif> where can I find out more about how OSGrid is run?
20:22 < nebadon> 1 sec
20:22 < nebadon> we have a page on the grid menu
20:22 < nebadon> http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/regionconnect
20:23 < nebadon> where was the about link?
20:23 < nebadon> where did you get that from?
20:23 < lkalif> dropdown on the main page, grid -> about
20:23 < nebadon> oh ya on the menu
20:23 < nebadon> heh
20:23 < nebadon> guess i should remove that
20:23 < nebadon> its the 3rd option down on that menu
20:23 < nebadon> Connect a Region
20:23 < nebadon> sorry "Running a Simulator"
20:24 < lkalif> no i meant more about the organization, who is in charge, a company, a person?
20:24 < osmantis> Bug #6531: [PATCH] Allow setting the Phantom flag of a single prim in a linkset ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6531 ): A NOTE has been added to this issue.
20:24 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist has apparently been banning people left and right and introducing rules who can be on the grid
20:24 < Hiro_Protagonist> lkalif: that is absurd
20:25 < lkalif> so child avatars are not banned?
20:25 < Hiro_Protagonist> only from the plazas
20:25 < Hiro_Protagonist> unless some complaint is made about abuse
20:25 < Hiro_Protagonist> http://pastebin.com/qhpPcCAZ
20:25 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist and you as soverign fearless leader get to make that decision?
20:25 < Hiro_Protagonist> there's the published position on several current matters
20:26 < Hiro_Protagonist> lkalif: dont go there
20:26 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist: why not?
20:26 < Hiro_Protagonist> because you have been subscribing to rumor instead of getting the facts
20:26 < lkalif> which is why I asked where can I learn more about OSGrid
20:27 < Hiro_Protagonist> if you are going to be confrontational with me over tripe you read on the web, I'll just go take a nap
20:27 < lkalif> who gets to make TOS, where they are published, etc.
20:27 < Hiro_Protagonist> I just gave you a link
20:27 < lkalif> pastebin?
20:27 < lkalif> lol
20:27 < Hiro_Protagonist> you would prefer something else?
20:27 < lkalif> you got to be kidding me, right?
20:27 < Hiro_Protagonist> do you have an inability to read whats on pastebin?
20:28 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: i beieve he is looking for soemthing that is officially santioned by an official governing body of osgrid
20:28 < lkalif> YES
20:28 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: some foundation, company, group
20:28 < Hiro_Protagonist> Melanie_T, as things stand right now, thats pretty much me. Doing what I can to improve that situation
20:29 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: and posted on an official site-thingy
20:29 < lkalif> so it is you and it's not a rumor
20:29 < Hiro_Protagonist> lkalif, perhaps you'd prefer that I pull my donations too, and we just go ahead and shut the thing down
20:29 < Hiro_Protagonist> no that is not a rumor
20:29 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: how has it come to be just you?
20:29 < WordfromtheWise> Hiro_Protagonist .. So i have a question why did you ejected that mid20 looking avatar on Sunday ?
20:29 < Hiro_Protagonist> ask Nebadon
20:29 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: no one cares enough?
20:29 < Hiro_Protagonist> Melanie_T, pretty much
20:29 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist: shutting the whole thing down would be preferable if you ask me
20:30 < lkalif> not having "dear leader" who like "it's so becausde i said so" attitude
20:30 < Hiro_Protagonist> Ok lkalif, on the strength of your concerns, I will deprive several thousand people of their hard work, and investment
20:30 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: i still don't see the harm in child avatars even on plazas. The issue isn't and never has been child avatars per se, it's sexual ageplay
20:30 < Hiro_Protagonist> dont be dim
20:30 < lkalif> Several of Singularity core devs have avatars that Hiro_Protagonist doesn't approve off
20:31 < Hiro_Protagonist> I dont even approve of singularity
20:31 < lkalif> and I like Singularity to be opensim compatible and the best viewr for it
20:31 -!- NickyP [~kvirc@24.89.44.106] has joined #opensim-dev
20:31 < lkalif> as OSGrid is the canonical place to test the newest opensim Hiro_Protagonist's actions seriously hinder the development
20:31 < Hiro_Protagonist> OSgrid barely runs stock opensim lkalif
20:32 < WordfromtheWise> you DONT APPROVE Singularity ? why , can i not use it on the osgrid anymore or am i lost in translation ( i know this is more for the #osgrid channel) ?
20:32 < Hiro_Protagonist> it uses pieces of robust
20:32 < lkalif> the less the viewers get tested on osgrid, the less feedback opensimulator project gets, the harm gets incrementaly larger
20:33 < Hiro_Protagonist> I havent banned any viewers
20:33 < Hiro_Protagonist> just because I dont like the viewer, it doesnt extrapolate that I prevent it from connecting
20:33 < nebadon> you can use Singularity on OSgrid
20:33 < Melanie_T> i'm not aware in what way a viewer can use iecesof robust - seing that robust is written in c#
20:33 < lkalif> nebadon: Hiro_Protagonist bannede some people just because he didn't like their avatars
20:34 < lkalif> as it happens, some of the core Singularity devs have those
20:34 < nebadon> only from the plazas
20:34 < Hiro_Protagonist> lkahlif, I dont care if they have them, but they better not use them on the plazas
20:34 * Melanie_T makes a parrot that squawks "Pieces of Robust, pieces of Robust"
20:34 < Hiro_Protagonist> end of story
20:35 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist: "end of story", just what a "dear leader" would say
20:40 < lkalif> so i guess simulator/viewer/library development should be moved somewhere less hostile
20:41 < lkalif> where not one power-crazed person gets to decide all the rules
20:41 < Hiro_Protagonist> so you gonna tell us we cant run bsd code now?
20:41 < Hiro_Protagonist> these rules were decided long ago and rarely enforced
20:41 < Hiro_Protagonist> all I've done is begin enforcing them consistentyl
20:41 < Melanie_T> to be honest, they're news to me
20:41 < lkalif> sure you can use BSD code
20:41 < Hiro_Protagonist> and if you dont like osgrid, or how its run, dont go there
20:41 < Hiro_Protagonist> simple
20:41 < lkalif> I'll just encourage development to take place elsewhere
20:42 < lkalif> where sane people prevail
20:42 < Hiro_Protagonist> Melanie_T, since when do you have anything to do with running osgrid?
20:42 < Melanie_T> i don't
20:42 < Melanie_T> just saying that these rules weren't known to me
20:42 < lkalif> Melanie_T: when they're published on pastebin how could anyone now?
20:43 < Melanie_T> i wasn't aware that isg had any rules regarding child avatars
20:43 < lkalif> unless you show up on the townhall and get banned by Hiro_Protagonist
20:43 < Melanie_T> the rules against actual children are of course clear
20:43 < Melanie_T> i had assumed they'd be in place
20:43 < Melanie_T> it's the law
20:43 < lkalif> who thought himself the ruler of the grids
20:43 < Melanie_T> lkalif: i'm sure they're not only on pb
20:43 < Melanie_T> they are probably in town hall logs, etc
20:44 < Melanie_T> and possibly in notecards
20:44 < lkalif> Melanie_T: i tried to find them on the about page, anywhere on osgrid.org
20:44 < nebadon> these are not really grid wide rules
20:44 < nebadon> they are for the plazas like i said
20:45 < nebadon> the problem is most of the people we see wearing child avatars in the plazas are also in adult type groups and portray adult like things in their profile with thier avatars
20:45 < Plugh> If they are rules related to osgrid they should be published somewhere that can easily be found.
20:46 < Hiro_Protagonist> http://pastebin.com/qhpPcCAZ
20:46 < lkalif> lol
20:46 < Hiro_Protagonist> latest update to the rules
20:46 < Hiro_Protagonist> read it or not, not my problem
20:46 < lkalif> anybody can post any crap on pastebin
20:47 < Melanie_T> what we have here is a ....
20:47 < Melanie_T> .... tempest in a teacup
20:47 * Plugh thought Melanie_T was about to say "failure to communicate" ;-)
20:48 < Melanie_T> lkalif: they should probably be on the website. but i'm sure sone day some one will get a round tuit.
20:48 < Melanie_T> Hiro_Protagonist: if a child avatar has adult-y things in the profile, is naked or wearing inappropriate attire, engages in sexual ageplay etc. - no issue at all.
20:48 < Melanie_T> but if the child av is clean, why ban?
20:49 < lkalif> I just want to get one more thing straigt: so OSGrid does not have a formal organization, it's Hiro_Protagonist mood swings that determine the rules there?
20:49 < Hiro_Protagonist> because it provides cover for othersw, and confuses people into believing that anything they want to do with a child av is ok
20:49 < Melanie_T> lkalif: i know eneough about OSG to be able to tell you it is not so
20:49 < Hiro_Protagonist> we have a long history of this sort of problem, thanks to the people who came to osgrid from meta7
20:49 < Hiro_Protagonist> that trouble is the origin of these concerns and these rules
20:49 < Melanie_T> lkalif: there area number of people involved in the administration and running of osg
20:50 < lkalif> Melanie_T: this child avatar thing seems to be pure Hiro_Protagonist's bone up his rear
20:50 < Melanie_T> lkalif: "dirty" child avatars are an issue in many legislations and offend a lot of people
20:50 < lkalif> we are not talking about "dirty" avatars
20:51 < nebadon> I think we might actually have some rules posted at Lbsa Plaza
20:51 < nebadon> let me log in and look
20:51 < Melanie_T> lkalif: i just don't subscribe to "lump all child avatars into the ageplay corner"
20:51 < lkalif> we are talking about a child avatar properly dressed, properly behaiving, just wishing to attend the townhall
20:51 < Melanie_T> lkalif: i can't say anything about the case at hand - i wasn't there and would not allow myself to speculate
20:52 < Hiro_Protagonist> lkalif: that person was in lbsa plaza for no other reason than to push limits
20:52 < lkalif> Melanie_T: i did not hear any denial here
20:52 < Hiro_Protagonist> and everything in that persons blog concerning myself and OSgrid is an outright lie
20:52 < lkalif> they were banned just for being a child avatar
20:52 < Plugh> Hm... the link the the TOS on the osgrid webpage seems to be bad.
20:52 < Melanie_T> oh there is a blog now?
20:52 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist: i did not read any blog
20:52 < Melanie_T> all i had was a chat log copypasta
20:53 < WordfromtheWise> this was the avatar in question on Sunday .. http://imgur.com/kXnI6zj more a mid18 or such dressed appropriate ..
20:53 < Hiro_Protagonist> the avatar lkalif is complaining about being banned
20:53 < Hiro_Protagonist> has a blog
20:53 < lkalif> I have Singularity core devs asking for osgrid to be removed from our grid selector
20:53 < lkalif> and boycotting any dev work there
20:53 < lkalif> but I want Singularity to be the best opensim viewer
20:53 < nebadon> I think eveyrone just needs to take a step back and calm down
20:53 < Hiro_Protagonist> well if they cant abide by the rules, perhaps osgrid is not the best place for them to work
20:54 < Hiro_Protagonist> I dont know what else to tell you
20:54 < lkalif> Hiro_Protagonist: i completely agree for once
20:54 < nebadon> perhaps we can be more clear about the rules
20:54 < nebadon> no doubt
20:54 < Hiro_Protagonist> we've been working on that, but lkalif wont read them so I dont know what making them more clear would help
20:54 < lkalif> if some wannabe dictator wants to express his personal hangups as the official osgrid policy, it is indeed not a place for me
20:55 < Plugh> Can anyone else bring up the TOS linked under the Info menu on the osgrid website?
20:55 < nebadon> well guys we are so off topic here I am going to ask this conversation end
20:55 < Hiro_Protagonist> I havent tried Plugh
20:55 < nebadon> this is a development channel
20:55 < Hiro_Protagonist> thank you
20:55 < nebadon> this discussion should not even be occuring here
20:55 < nebadon> we can all talk in private, but i suggest everyone step back for a bit and cool off
20:56 < nebadon> making decisions when your upset is never a good idea
20:56 < lkalif> nebadon: you have a governence problem
20:56 < lkalif> no amount of trying to silence it will help that
20:56 < Plugh> Add the info to the TOS and done.
20:56 < nebadon> ok well like i said, conversation here is done for now
20:56 < nebadon> no need to keep beating a dead horse
20:56 < nebadon> we get it
20:57 < nebadon> we'll talk more about it and get things a little more clear so everyone understands
20:58 < SianaGearz> let's see how hiro does not approve of Songularity, shall we
20:58 < SianaGearz> 21:47 <Hiro_Protagonist> I would, without qualifi
20:58 < SianaGearz> cation, apologize for getting off to a bad start
20:58 < SianaGearz> with you
20:58 < SianaGearz> 21:48 <Hiro_Protagonist> your viewer is a very ni
20:58 < SianaGearz> ce piece of work
21:00 < lkalif> heh

---

Und noch das erwähnte andere Pastebin:

POLICY: TWO WAYS TO HELP IN OSGRID

One way to help other residents get newcomer information and technical assistance is to become a member of the official OSgrid Greeters Group. OSgrid Greeters welcome newcomers and orient to the grid as well as find the technical information they need. Official Greeters may work in the OSgrid Welcome Center or in the OSgrid plazas. If you would like to become an OSgrid greeter please im Amy Storm or Hiro Protagonist and let them know you are interested.

Not all people who want to help have the time or interest in becoming an official OSgrid greeter. We encourage unofficial volunteers to help as much or as little as you want.

1. Unofficial volunteers are not under the direction or supervision of OSgrid staff. We do ask that you not interrupt a greeter who is working one-on-one with a resident. If you have a suggestion, im the greeter.

2. Official greeters may ask for your help from time to time or you may ask them for help. Both OSgrid Greeter Group members and unofficial volunteers should work together to support other users.

3. Please do not use the name OSgrid even as an abbreviation in your title.

4. Unofficial volunteers may work everywhere except in The OSgrid Welcome Center.

Official and unofficial volunteers are equally valued and appreciated. Let us know if you have suggestions or there is anything we can do to assist you in your efforts on behalf of OSgrid.


Item 3: The OSgrid Welcome Center
Talking Points
The new OSgrid Welcome center will open this week. It will give newcomers an opportunity to learn about OSgrid, get a new avatar and landmarks as well as other information.
Newcomers who don't want this information will be able to go it on their own and go straight to the teleport station.
After orientation, or on arrival if they choose, newcomers will be teleported to LBSA or Wright Plaza.
We will continue to improve the signs and information as we fine tune it to the needs of newcomers. If you would like to tour the center, Amy Storm can get you a visitors pass.

Item 4: New LBSA
Talking Points
Work is well underway on a new LBSA.
It will feature an open mulch-storied building for socializing and assisting others. There will be indoor and outdoor seating for small groups. We plan on an area for dancing.
Flight will be enabled.
There will park land around the building to provide a natural, welcoming environment.
We hope that this new LBSA will be used and enjoyed as well as providing an area for residents to assist each other.

Item 5: Children and Child Avatars
Talking Points
No single issue has been as contentious or as difficult to address as the issue of children and child avatars in OSgrid.
It is absolutely necessary for us to address the issue of child abuse and the appearance of child abuse from both a legal and moral standpoint.
We believe that children, meaning people under the actual age of 18, belong on closed grids monitored and controlled by parents or schools.
Child avatars will not be allowed at official OSgrid plazas.
We believe that child avatars are acceptable in role playing on private regions where the scenario is about community or family. We do not construe this narrowly. DON'T WORRY.
This policy in no way applies to any role play involving adult avatars. We welcome furies, tines, fairies of all varieties and all their variations. In official OSgrid Plazas we ask only that you behavior stay within the regions rating
OSgrid staff will not be investigating private regions. We won't be searching you regions for violations. We will investigate or ask you personally if there is a serious enough complaint.
The policy you receive today is not the final version. The intention is to have a policy that works with the roleplaying communities and does not interfer with them or limit their creative growth. Please send me a notecard with any questions or concerns you may have about this policy during the upcoming week. We hope to have a further refined policy available for you next week.

POLICY: CHILDREN AND CHILD AVATARS IN OSGRID

This policy applies only to children and child avatars. Fairies, elves, tinies, furries and all other avatars that do not represent children are welcome in all areas of OSgrid. This policy also does not apply to activities and role play among consenting adults except where children are represented.
1. No children, meaning people under the age of 18, are allowed in OSgrid at anytime. We believe children belong on closed grids supervised by parents or teachers.
2. Child avatars are not allowed on official OSgrid property such as the plazas.
3. Ageplay and activities that represent or encourage child abuse whether sexual, physical, or emotional will not be tolerated. This is not just our policy. It is also the law.
4. Child avatars are allowed on private regions and land where the roleplay involves community and/or family. This will not be interpreted narrowly.
5. OSgrid staff will not investigate or question activities on private regions or land unless there is a serious enough complaint. Complaints will be handled in the least intrusive manner possible but will be addressed.
Once more, this policy applies only to children or child avatars. No other avatars or role play activities are affected.

[Bogus Curry]

Der log ist schon heftig, aber es zeigt auch das neb und hiro sich wohl in einigen Punkten einig sind, jedenfalls sieht es so aus. Na ich denke, wenn das hier einer liest, der vorhatte eine Region an OSGrid zu hängen, der wird sich wohl sich sehr viele Gedanken machen, ob er das immer noch machen will.

Aber das mit dem Viewer ist schon heftig, wenn das stimmt und davon gehe ich mal von aus, dann ist das der erste Viewer ohne OSGrid und das bei einem der sehr beliebt ist ...

[Catie Chiung]

Für mich nun eine klare Bestätigung mich in Zukunft vom OSgrid zu distanzieren. Das Argument von Hiro dass es diese Regeln schon immer gegeben hätte hinkt gewaltig.
Ganz erlich wenn die Singularity das OSgrid nicht mehr in der Standartauswahl aufführt, dann macht es den Viewer so richtig Sympatisch für mich. Hoffe andere Viewer wie CoolVL ziehen nach.

[LyAvain]

lkalif ist Latif Khalifa, der Entwickler vom Radegast Textclienten, der aber soweit ich weiss auch beim Singu mitentwickelt hat (unter anderem Update des LSL Editors). Dem scheint das Ganze überhaupt nicht zu schmecken. ... Und wenn Viewerentwickler anfangen Front gegen das OSgrid zu machen, sollte man langsam mal aufwachen. Obwohl, vielleicht ist denen das ja auch egal, Littlefield hat ja einen Deal mit dem Firestorm Team. Und die wiederum haben einen Deal mit dem US Militär... Passt ja irgendwie.

Langsam nimmt das Ganze groteske Züge an.